TACITUS Radiate imitation

[adrianus]

Hi all,

On a previous thread the topic of radiate copies of Tacitus and Probus arose. I did not think I had my Tacitus with me but I found it this morning

Regrads,

Adrianus

[michiel]

Hi there Adrianus

Very nice coin. I have never seen a barbaric coin of tacitus before.

Best regards Michiel

[batavier]

Hello Adrianus,

Did you find it yourself?

Batavier

[adrianus]

Hi Batavier & Michiel,
No, I bought it in York. It was cheap though 
Regards,
Adrianus

[aurelianus]

@ Adrianus
You must be very lucky to buy such a rare coin, I've seen many coins also "barbarian" coins, but I've never seen this one
greetings A 

[Goodies]

A BARBAROUS TACITUS - BARBAARSE TACITUS dit zien we.. nooit.. meer.. 

Yeah sure ! cheap ! Hey @adrianus,  so you have this precious coin lying around in your room somewhere without knowing.. wow.. if I had it, I would make the obverse side my Avatar-picture. This portrait is a stunningly beautiful "Tetricus Jr lookalike" Tacitus. Now taking into account that Tacitus was not really long after Aurelianus, I feel that the tribe that issued this coin, must have been (very) loyal to "their" Tetrici.. I feel a dancing Spes (or Salus left) is another part of the game. There were coins of Tacitus with Spes, but it is very common on Tetrici coins.

Beautiful coin. Is it Spes of Salus ? At first glance, I thought Tacitus - Spes - RIC-61 could have been an example piece here. But I see a staff, it might also be Salus. Now the Salus coins of Tacitus look differently. A possibility is that the example was a piece with Salus originating from Tetricus times, the lettering adjusted (properly!!) to the new times..

Jaaaja goedkoop, nou als je dit ergens hebt rond slingeren in joe kamer dan ben ik zeer jaloers. Als ik deze munt zou hebben, werd de voorzijde onmiddelijk mijn Avatar-plaatje. Dat portret is een prachtige "Tetricus-Jr" lookalike. Dat is niet zo gek, want Tacitus was niet lang na Aurelianus en de herinnering aan de Tetrici zal levend geweest zijn. De stam die deze munt uitgaf zal jaren het portret van de Tetrici op hun munten gehad hebben. Een Spes (of Salus? staf?) op de keerzijde is natuurlijk ook te verwachten.

Prachtig muntje, zeg !  Ik denk dat Tacitus - Spes - RIC-61 de voorbeeldmunt zou kunnen zijn geweest. Een andere mogelijkheid is Tetricus, met Spes, of Salus. De munten van Tacitus met Salus zien er overigens anders uit.

 
Lex

[Gladius]

Zonder twijfel is dit Tacitus omdat de omschrift duidelijk: CL TACITVS laat zien. De keerzijde is naar mijn mening Clementia met scepter, leunend op colom: CLEMENTIA TEMP. Ric. 84?

[adrianus]

Hi,
I think both are possible prototypes but I would favour a reversed Salus (Salus normally faces left) since there appears to be the traces of a snake arising from the altar. The makers of these radiate copies mis-match obverse and reverses so often and so often garble their types that I don't think we should worry too much exactly what the prototype is. Just enjoy the coin   
Goodies - I thought the coin was in another tray.
Best wishes,
Adrianus

[Goodies]

The makers of these radiate copies mis-match obverse and reverses so often and so often garble their types that I don't think we should worry too much exactly what the prototype is.

  You mentioned style earlier. Now we definitely do "worry" about example coins ! In the process of studying these coins, we'd like to reconstruct the way and the accuracy of the copying procedure. Also, we want to know how a particular barbaric reverse deviates from the example coin. To do so, I always first attempt to locate the example coin on-line and show the two pictures side by side, to inspect the differences that are typical. I think that is essential to understand the process and help learning to recognize characteristic differences, also for barbaric radii !

 
Lex
 

[adrianus]

Hi Lex, I just composed a long reply to this and the computer crashed. I am so angry
Right, to repeat...
Your point is valid on one level  ! But the thing is with barbarous coins they are so often garbled. There are so many types which are not technically correct (e.g. Salus with cornucopia etc) that I do not think we should be too concerned with the prototype of any particular barbarous issue. Look at this one - a Constantinopolis bust with an VRBS ROMA legend. Similar garbled coins are always turning up in the barbarous series.
Style is different. Style represents the way a particular engraver treats particular features of a design. What differentiates my, for example, Mint II style 1a coins from my 2b, is the different treatment of a number of variables. These variables define my stylistic considerations. They enable (1) the viewer to define whether a coin is an imitation or not and (2) to (if the coin falls into a known group) define which group that barbarous coin belongs to.
We may well be approaching this question from different angles and I am not saying that searching for a prototype is irrelevant but I am saying that  it is not always the best way of dealing with these coins. Barbarous coins are often (as you stated yourself in an earlier thread) interpretations of a particualr type. I don't always think it is particularly worthwhile to search for the particular original (if there was just one original) type for an imitation; I prefer to concentrate on the stylistic attributes of the imitation itself. Only by doing this, I would argue, can we truly begin to categorise these imitations. The original is not important - it is the attributes of the imitation we must study.
Sorry for the lack of smilies - I'm not really being grumpy - I just want to kill my computer
Best regards,
Adrianus
BY THE WAY - ARE ANY READERS OF THIS FORUM GOING TO THE LONDON COIN FAIR THIS SATURDAY???